並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E8%BD%89%E5%90%A7%E5%89%B5%E5%A4%A2%E5%A4%A7%E5%8F%94/ep58-%E7%88%B5%E5%A3%AB%E7%9A%84%E4%BF%A1%E4%BB%B0%E6%98%AF%E5%8D%B3%E8%88%88%E5%8D%B3%E8%88%88%E7%9A%84%E5%9F%BA%E7%A4%8E%E6%98%AF%E7%B4%80%E5%BE%8B-feat-U59Pv_eaotM/